Comments on: Player of the Year…Who Should It Really Be and What Method Should be Used to Determine the POY? http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/ Texas Hold'em and Las Vegas WSOP Poker Blog, now with PLO too! Thu, 09 Feb 2012 21:03:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Tom Schneider http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-106173 Tom Schneider Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:33:19 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-106173 The big reason why this is so hard to figure out is that if you use GoodChuck's system, which is a reasonable approach, if a player doesn't make the top 100 or so in the main event, he has no shot at player of the year. Why? The winner would get 600-some points and first place for many of the other events would only be 30 or 40 points. Maybe the system they have isn't all that bad, but I would still like to try and make it better so that when someone wins it, there are no arguments. Wait, then what would Dan do (wwdd)? The big reason why this is so hard to figure out is that if you use GoodChuck’s system, which is a reasonable approach, if a player doesn’t make the top 100 or so in the main event, he has no shot at player of the year. Why? The winner would get 600-some points and first place for many of the other events would only be 30 or 40 points. Maybe the system they have isn’t all that bad, but I would still like to try and make it better so that when someone wins it, there are no arguments. Wait, then what would Dan do (wwdd)?

]]> By: Chris Hanel http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105939 Chris Hanel Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:11:19 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105939 One observation I saw from someone is that Michael Binger should be up on the list, considering his record-tying number of cashes. I'm too lazy/busy/whatever at the moment to check how deep he got or if he made any Final Tables. But it's worth thinking about. One observation I saw from someone is that Michael Binger should be up on the list, considering his record-tying number of cashes.

I’m too lazy/busy/whatever at the moment to check how deep he got or if he made any Final Tables. But it’s worth thinking about.

]]> By: DanM http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105934 DanM Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:50:12 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105934 Multiply that number by the number of thousands at stake? So a $2k event is multiplied by 2, a $50k by 50 ... $10k PLO by 10 ... Does this work? I'm not very good at math. Multiply that number by the number of thousands at stake?

So a $2k event is multiplied by 2, a $50k by 50 … $10k PLO by 10 …

Does this work? I’m not very good at math.

]]> By: Tom Schneider http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105932 Tom Schneider Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:44:07 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105932 Goodchuck, I like your idea; however, the one thing that I find that might need some work is that if you win the $50k horse event, you would get about 10 points. This is the toughest field in the whole tournament. Fix this and others like it and you have a winner. Goodchuck,

I like your idea; however, the one thing that I find that might need some work is that if you win the $50k horse event, you would get about 10 points. This is the toughest field in the whole tournament. Fix this and others like it and you have a winner.

]]> By: GoodChuck http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105802 GoodChuck Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:07:08 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105802 Here's a thought off the top of my head. All players who finish in the money are given one point for each place they finsh above the bubble with the winner receiving points equal to the number of players who got paid. Example: 34 players get paid - 34th place gets one point, winner gets 34 points. Exclude the Main Event. The player with the most cummlative points wins. Let me know what you think Tom. Here’s a thought off the top of my head. All players who finish in the money are given one point for each place they finsh above the bubble with the winner receiving points equal to the number of players who got paid. Example: 34 players get paid – 34th place gets one point, winner gets 34 points. Exclude the Main Event. The player with the most cummlative points wins. Let me know what you think Tom.

]]> By: Anon http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105791 Anon Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:06:45 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105791 I believe that some consideration should be given to those entrants that are clearly not as smart as the others, or overcome obvious limitations. To that end, I'd nominate Vinnie Vinh's chair for at least a third place finish. Lacking arms, a muscular or nervous system, and any level of consciousness must count for something. I believe that some consideration should be given to those entrants that are clearly not as smart as the others, or overcome obvious limitations. To that end, I’d nominate Vinnie Vinh’s chair for at least a third place finish. Lacking arms, a muscular or nervous system, and any level of consciousness must count for something.

]]> By: DanM http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105781 DanM Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:50:13 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105781 Don't forget that if there were a player ranking system for the WSOP, the fields with, say, 300 people, would be full of tougher players. so while, true, it may be tougher to navigate through a 2,000-player minefield, really ... is it? We already know Tom's bracelets really shouldn't count because they weren't on TV, but at the same time, the fields he beat clearly had far less "dead money" in them than the rest. By the way, Bill Edler also had a pretty good WSOP. Don’t forget that if there were a player ranking system for the WSOP, the fields with, say, 300 people, would be full of tougher players. so while, true, it may be tougher to navigate through a 2,000-player minefield, really … is it?

We already know Tom’s bracelets really shouldn’t count because they weren’t on TV, but at the same time, the fields he beat clearly had far less “dead money” in them than the rest.

By the way, Bill Edler also had a pretty good WSOP.

]]> By: Tom Schneider http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105780 Tom Schneider Sun, 22 Jul 2007 03:06:06 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105780 Donkey, I like your name and some very good points. I can give you my reasoning as to why they did not include the main event in the points. I'm not saying its right, but this might be their reasoning. First of all, the player who wins the main event is already considered by the nonpoker playing public as the best player in the world. This as we know is not necessarily true; however, this winner doesn't need another crown of glory, because every player I know would give up 2 players of the year for one main event win. Secondly and probably more likely is that the race for player of the year should create some drama, some excitement. If they waited until after the main event to present this award, all of it's prestige and excitement would be pretty much a nonevent. All of the players have gone home. In the publics eye, the real champion just won $8.2 million and no one would care about some award given to someone else after the big one is over. The WSOP is trying to create a triple crown of poker. The Player of the Year, the $50,000 Horse event and the Main event. Its a cool idea, but it's virtually impossible for someone who doesn't have a main event win under their belt already. Thanks for the comments. Donkey, I like your name and some very good points. I can give you my reasoning as to why they did not include the main event in the points. I’m not saying its right, but this might be their reasoning.

First of all, the player who wins the main event is already considered by the nonpoker playing public as the best player in the world. This as we know is not necessarily true; however, this winner doesn’t need another crown of glory, because every player I know would give up 2 players of the year for one main event win.

Secondly and probably more likely is that the race for player of the year should create some drama, some excitement. If they waited until after the main event to present this award, all of it’s prestige and excitement would be pretty much a nonevent. All of the players have gone home. In the publics eye, the real champion just won $8.2 million and no one would care about some award given to someone else after the big one is over.

The WSOP is trying to create a triple crown of poker. The Player of the Year, the $50,000 Horse event and the Main event. Its a cool idea, but it’s virtually impossible for someone who doesn’t have a main event win under their belt already.

Thanks for the comments.

]]> By: donkey http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105778 donkey Sun, 22 Jul 2007 02:45:28 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105778 Maybe I'm a lil slow in this matter, but why the Main Event is not used to determine the POY. I think WSOP should put a point value on the Main Event, not necessarily giving more points because it's a bigger event, and the winner of the Main Event doesn't automatically win in the standings. But by far, it is the most challenging and gruesome competition, so some kind of equitable point value should be given. Having said that, I believe that a player cashes 4th in a field of 6300 has a lot more value than a player who wins an event of 300 players, so they definitely should look at the field size in determining point values. Had this happened, the two best players this year would have been Scotty Nguyen and Kravchenko, in my opinion. Look at the MVP in the NBA this past year. Do you think that Dirk would have won if they waited until after the finals? Maybe I’m a lil slow in this matter, but why the Main Event is not used to determine the POY. I think WSOP should put a point value on the Main Event, not necessarily giving more points because it’s a bigger event, and the winner of the Main Event doesn’t automatically win in the standings. But by far, it is the most challenging and gruesome competition, so some kind of equitable point value should be given. Having said that, I believe that a player cashes 4th in a field of 6300 has a lot more value than a player who wins an event of 300 players, so they definitely should look at the field size in determining point values. Had this happened, the two best players this year would have been Scotty Nguyen and Kravchenko, in my opinion. Look at the MVP in the NBA this past year. Do you think that Dirk would have won if they waited until after the finals?

]]> By: Tom Schneider http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105776 Tom Schneider Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:03:07 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105776 Shamus, This is amazing. I almost edited my post late last night to include a few things that you mentioned. I do think that the percentage of in-the-money and final table wins vs. the number of tournaments played should be considered. Also, people should keep in mind that if a player makes a final table, he will not be able to play in 2 tournaments; therefore making 10th a lot less important than 9th. Shamus, I'm very impressed with your comments. With a mind like that, you've got to move up from the $2-4 games. Let me know what you get for the book on ebay. We may be able to start a little business enterprise. Shamus,

This is amazing. I almost edited my post late last night to include a few things that you mentioned. I do think that the percentage of in-the-money and final table wins vs. the number of tournaments played should be considered. Also, people should keep in mind that if a player makes a final table, he will not be able to play in 2 tournaments; therefore making 10th a lot less important than 9th.

Shamus, I’m very impressed with your comments. With a mind like that, you’ve got to move up from the $2-4 games.

Let me know what you get for the book on ebay. We may be able to start a little business enterprise.

]]> By: Short-Stacked Shamus http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105768 Short-Stacked Shamus Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:46:43 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105768 Haven't followed the 2+2 thread, but another factor that seems relevant here is number of tourneys entered (and/or ROI% -- however you want to view it). Seems like the guy who cashed in 3 out of the 5 events he entered had a much better WSOP than the one who cashed in 3 out 35, and thus should finish higher in the POY race. Particularly since the WSOP's oversaturated schedule is such that going deep in a tourney necessarily limits the number you can enter. Incidentally, I'm happy with how the 2007 POY turned out, and I'm not just saying that because of what my signed copy of his book will now fetch on eBay. (Just kidding!) Haven’t followed the 2+2 thread, but another factor that seems relevant here is number of tourneys entered (and/or ROI% — however you want to view it). Seems like the guy who cashed in 3 out of the 5 events he entered had a much better WSOP than the one who cashed in 3 out 35, and thus should finish higher in the POY race. Particularly since the WSOP’s oversaturated schedule is such that going deep in a tourney necessarily limits the number you can enter.

Incidentally, I’m happy with how the 2007 POY turned out, and I’m not just saying that because of what my signed copy of his book will now fetch on eBay. (Just kidding!)

]]> By: Kevin Mathers http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105767 Kevin Mathers Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:41:43 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105767 You could use the 2005 format for WSOP Player of the Year (which includes the every open event), found at: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2005/06/espn-player-year-race.htm Using the 5 players listed, the order would be*: Hellmuth 433 Schneider 368 Lisandro 308 Mizrachi 287 Deeb 167 If you count Kravchenko, he would win with 456 * Figures may be slightly off, since I was adding in my head, eschewing pen and paper. You could use the 2005 format for WSOP Player of the Year (which includes the every open event), found at: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2005/06/espn-player-year-race.htm

Using the 5 players listed, the order would be*:

Hellmuth 433
Schneider 368
Lisandro 308
Mizrachi 287
Deeb 167

If you count Kravchenko, he would win with 456

* Figures may be slightly off, since I was adding in my head, eschewing pen and paper.

]]> By: dan m http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/comment-page-1/#comment-105762 dan m Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:25:02 +0000 http://pokerati.com/2007/07/20/player-of-the-year%e2%80%a6who-should-it-really-be-and-what-method-should-be-used-to-determine-the-poy/#comment-105762 tom, you'll <i>always</i> be my player of the year. however, had alex kravchenko won the main event, maybe not. tom, you’ll always be my player of the year.

however, had alex kravchenko won the main event, maybe not.

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