Non-observable tables isn’t the end all be all answer that some people would want but it is a start and would significantly impact the ability of the mass dataminers to make money. The two major ways people get hands to stuff into their HUD’s is Idleminer and purchasing them from TableRatings, this move puts them out of business. So for any site out there it is put up or shutup time, don’t pretend you actually care when there is an option that would protect your players and you didn’t take it.

but the word “allow” … can it be stopped?

even if people are limited to amassing only their own data, what’s to stop someone from saying, “hey all my friends, let’s get together and pool our data, you know, compare notes (at this new fancy online site i created for our ‘community’?”

Since the levels I play at, it really isn’t that big a deal, I don’t really worry about it so much. However I can see at the higher levels it could be an issue.

Take away datamining and you level the playing field to some degree. The edge in poker is good decision making with the information you have at hand. If the amount of available information is equal to all at the table, then the edge you have is your poker skillset over the other guys at the table. Which is what all the poker books basically teach you. IMO take away some of these extra tools makes online poker more like live poker.

If anyone watched 2M2M, there was an episode where those guys picked up on a betting tell where the opponent was betting pot sized bets almost everytime he was bluffing, they figured this out and cleaned the guy out. They didnt need any datamining data for that online poker tell. That is poker in my mind.

I don’t really see what poker as a whole has to gain my allowing datamining.

if you had two online options — one that was totally anonymous and not data-minable, the other being with avatar characters and data-mining masked as fully public bragging rights — i suspect the current pool of online players would split 50-50 on where they play. Maybe 60-40, but not sure which side would hold the majority.

actually, i imagine many players would have accounts on both sites, and where they played would depend on how they are running.

Of course some players, like Isildur, want to be anonymous. But for those who don’t mind at least a little attention and glory and slobbering fanboyism they’d like credit where it’s due. And under their own screen name.

I however believe that people should have access to their own information and non-observable tables would not change this one bit.

I really am interested in your opinion since you have a great deal of experience with datamining.

Would non-observed tables even work? Are they grabbing feeds?

in general, the people who say “ban it!” are lacking a bit of reality grasp. (hi tom.) after all, that was what the UIGEA set out to do.

banning creates a gun situation … where people who play by the rules are screwed by those who don’t. i mean shit, if we’re gonna ban stuff in an effort to create the kinda world we really want to live in, let’s just ban war and ugly girls.

yeah, that will work.

I think in todays world everyone is aware of the systems and sites that are out there thus it is their choice to use or not to use them, everyone has an equal opportunity to use them. All of my data was free but even if it were paid for I still would not have an issue with it.

what I would have an issue with is if that data were only given to certain players, like, we are only going to give this info to players whose ROI is over x%… or those players that can prove they have blonde girlfriends… or whatever other crazy criteria. as long as everyone has an equal opportunity to that data I dont have a problem with it.

you also brought up the scenario that happens all the time of your friends telling you that seat x is soft or is over agressive or whatever else. that was not data that you compiled through your own play and it is pretty much just like the sites and software… heck it is even more dangerous and useful than the sites and software. sites and software can only take an analytical number crunching approach. people verbalizing that in such and such situation he grabs his ear then bluffs can be 100 times more useful, than 40% of the time this person bluffs on the river.

and I dont have a problem with either things. as an intelligent person I know that these thing happen and that this software is out there and I take it into acct when playing, and to me it is all part of the game.

on another note. in my mind is people are circulating a petition they need to steer clear of the “privacy” argument. the reason for this is that people are playing in public events and thus these data mining sites are essentially reporting the news and are allowed to and protected by the US constitution(if that site resides in the USA). by the same token that doesnt mean that the sites should just make it easy on data miners. I am jsut saying that people dont have much ground to stand on when they just played in a multiple public events and are mad that someone is reporting that they lost 900 tournaments in a row, if you value your privacy that much then dont play.

now to ramble about the ramifications of allowing anonymous play.
the main argument against anonymous play is that it is less like live play. in other words… if you sit down at a live cash game and you know that from your past experience that the lady in seat 3 sucks and is tight passive and the guy next to her loves to over bet and be uber aggressive with mid pair and that the guy next to you always check raises with draws… that is a huge knowledge advantage that you have collected by playing with them multiple times…if all of a sudden people were wearing bags over their heads and playing and you had no idea that these three were sitting at your table … you lose your advantage… that advantage is one of the skills that we as “poker” players want and look for in our seat selection. to take that away harms what we consider a skill game and pushes it more towards a game of luck. so what you all face in this argument to ban stat sites and software …well for lack of a better phrase and to make it short… “it’s a double edged sword”

on yet another note… banning sites is futile and the only ones that wont go to these sites while playing are the people that abide and follow the rules… thus many will “break the rules” and still go while playing. and technically while it maybe pheasible for the FTP or PS software to interfere with you going to these sites and usin x software there are a million ways around that . further these poker sites cant threaten to sue data sites and software whose companies are based in the USA, cause to sue they would likely have to come into the USA and we all know that they dont want to do that.
I had a lawyer tell me that if I got an email from a poker site asking for cease and desist to not worry about it and that if it did go to court the first thing we would do would be to subpoena the heads of those companies, which are under threat to be jailed upon entering the USA, thus its a mute point.

what yall are discussing is something the poker sites have been dealing with and discussing for years. they are damned if they do and damned if they dont … they are trying to make the decisions that best benefit the customer and in turn will benefit them in terms of more rake and players at the game. the ugieaiouaua law that was passed did damage cause the casual player gave up. it became to hard or inconvenient for them to deposit money(loss of neteller). in my opinion that is what they need to be spending money and time on getting rid of. it also psycologically told the donks that it was illegal to play online poker, you and I know this is not true, but to the casual player (the ones that are bringing dead money to the game) it was true and they left the online game by the thousands.

sorry for the ramblings….

Seems like a good solution in my eyes, what am I missing?

as a programmer and architect of datamining software and systems — and as someone who runs their own small forum where you presumably see all your members as friends — where do you draw the moral and ethical lines when it comes to this sort of technology being deployed in the online poker world?

the simplest way of combating this is not to allow players to change their names, doing this causes problems with the limited number of usuable player names. who really wants to sign up as g695g43 and have to remember that … cause that is what would eventually happen. all the “usuable” names would be taken as people on a routine basis change their name. the other option people through out there was the anonymous table option… i dont think that is viable either… as most of the dataminer players will avoid those tables… and it still makes their data valuable… and the players that always want to find a game might be left with only the option to play at a non-anonymous table…

thus a hybrid of sorts is a good solution. People can change their name 1 time(the only reason for this is for people to be able to shed their past in preparation for the next step). the next step would be to enable a “check box” that allows their screen name to show up as “player1234″ or whatever other random name, that random name is in use for that player until they finish thier session at that table or tournament. they can even go deeper and have a check box that allows your name to be displayed in the event that you make the final table of a multitable…. cause as private as some would like ot be they would still like to get that recognition from their peers and friends that they won such and such event. this approach would allow every individual player the option to make their own choice. and be able to toggle their choice back and forth or form table to table…

just some thoughts.

from the technical side of things… OCR gets more and more difficult to handle the more the background images change when text is in front of it . randomizing the BG and doing a few other tricks can prove useful. but most technical things can be over come it just depends on that persons dedication. I wasnt very dedicated and after having to change my code for the millionth time I gave it up, plus i was just an individual not a group/team of app devs.

Just askin’ …

But essentially, you’re saying, hey, if you can’t do anything about it, just sit back an enjoy it? And you’re thinking about Phil Hellmuth in a ball gag. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say you’ve got issues dude … and that’s exactly why some people wanna know the players they are up against, so they can avoid them altogether.

I mentioned this on 4, traditionally the sucker makes the rules in poker. It is up to the good player to adjust. So the only thing really stopping this is the fact that the sites would lose some rake from some nits. That shouldn’t be the reason why you do or don’t do something important for the game. Over time though I think they will come out way ahead.

One thing is for sure, someone is already doing it (Cake Poker) the only reason the market isn’t speaking in this regard is because their software is abysmal. Lee Jones has been mentioning that they have new software coming out that bests FTP and Stars, I highly doubt that but it likely won’t matter, all they need to do is get close. For a site like UB/AP this is a no brainer, they need to be the first to market with something like this, they have a pattern of following what the other people are doing and therefore they never create a market. It would be nice to see UB/AP take the lead on this one.