Mucked Up

How can it be dirty play to take down a pot that is rightfully yours?

by , Jun 5, 2012 | 3:37 am

I want to clear something up that happened during a hand in a $1,500 no limit tournament. I have heard that some are accusing me of using my influence to get a favorable ruling and/or that I took a shot to win a pot.

I’ll let Pokerati readers decide.

On the river, I bet. My opponent calls, to which I announce, “nothing.” My opponent does not turn over his hand, so I table my jack-high. He looks befuddled, picks up one of his cards so only his next-door player can see it. He does NOT table his hand. Only one player sees his one card, which is a queen and would be a winner. He takes his two cards face down and places them on top of the stub of the deck.

The dealer pushes the pot to me. Two seconds go by and everyone is kind of stunned. One guy at the table mutters “sick call” thinking the guy called and couldn’t beat a jack hi.

The dealer does make a little mistake by not mixing all the cards together to make sure that the hand is unidentifiable. Now my opponent looks puzzled and says, “Wait, I had the winning hand.” Yes he did, but he mucked it. Now he’s saying he should get the pot.

We call floor and tell our stories. The floor asks if the hand is identifiable. We all say yes. He leaves and comes back to the table and says that my opponent gets the pot. So I ask, “When is a hand ‘over’? And are you telling me that a player can muck his hand and then get awarded a pot?” He says, “hold on, I’ll be back.”

The floor man that made the ruling from afar comes over and we tell the story to him. Five people on my side of the table all saw the guy muck his hand. “That’s not the way I heard the story from over there,” the new floorman says before awarding the pot to me. “If he didn’t table his hand and mucked it, he can’t get the pot.”

Did my opponent have the best hand? Yes, but part of poker is reading the board and tabling a winner.

Personally, I believe he misread my hand. But did I take a shot? Everyone at the table heard me say “nothing,” except my opponent who had his iPod blaring in both ears. Did I get a favorable ruling because of my “status” as a pro? In my opinion, hell no.

Every friend and pro I’ve asked about the situation agrees, when a player mucks his hand it is dead unless it’s tabled face-up first. One buddy says that if they awarded the pot to his opponent in the same situation, they would have barred him from the WSOP because he would have gone berserk.

I was disappointed that Gavin Smith, a friend of mine, was giving me shit from the next table when he didn’t know the situation. Gavin often has opinions without all the facts which is why we love him.

Think of what could have happened. Is it possible that my opponent’s neighbor kicked him under the table when he mucked the best hand? Yes. Is it possible the look on the dealer’s face and the guy muttering “sick call” alerted him that something was up? Yes. That’s why when an unexposed hand hits the muck it should be dead.

Now you guys decide.


  • Mucked hand is mucked.   Unless you muck a finished hand in online poker, last I knew WSOP was live.

  • Cougar ML

    ??? I can’t believe you had to write about this. He can’t win anything without proving his score card against another opponent.
    And last I heard…last man standing wins.

  • If his hand beats yours, and the hand is clearly identifiable by everyone at the table the pot should go to the other player. He was last to act, so it’s not like people have acted after him and there’s no way for him to now act. Perhaps, technically, the pot is yours, but why would you want to win a pot that doesn’t really belong to you? Seems like a loser move someone at a free-play pub poker tournament would pull, trying to claim a pot because of a technicality.Whining, “But he mucked”. It’s poor sportsmanship, and very uncool. You’re a player, Tom. Act like one. 

  • Asdfhwaefhah

    dude mucked his hand. nothing shady here at all. I’m sure he was upset and it sucks for him, but ultimately it’s his fault ……/story

  • DNew

    I’ve been in a similar situation in cash game, got same ruling. The consensus among other players afterwards was also that the ruling was correct, though many were sympathetic. In my case the player didn’t spot they made a straight but another player did, the cards were identifiable even though they were mucked.

  • Grange95

    Assuming the hand went down as described (not doubting, just that every poker story has 10 versions), then this was a standard poker situation and a standard (and correct) ruling. No angleshot, nothing sketchy, move along.

    Why is it so damn hard these days to get people to just turn their damn cards over at showdown??

  • Whatupsutherland

    But did you muck first? Important detail that you gloss over and he insists you did (by pushing cards forward face down).

    • that part doesn’t matter if Tom “mucked” face up.

  • The Big Randy

    What is important is not that Tom won the pot, what is important is that the black line rule was enforced.  While I’m sure Tom was happy to win the pot, I am also sure that Tom was more concerned with reinforcing the rule.  if you muck your hand, you cannot win the hand… period.  When floormen and women begin to make exceptions to this rule bad things happen.  It is unquestionably a basic tenet of poker that a player must defend his own hand.  it is even more basic that it is “one player to a hand,” thus, unless tabled, you are the only one that can defend your own hand.  If you have played the game long enough, you’ve seen your neighbor show you a winning hand and accidently fold it. 

    Let me give you just one example of when bad things might happen:  I was playing a tournament in Choctaw last fall.  With Blinds at 200-400, I pushed all in under the gun for $5,500, one orange $5,000 chip, one gray $500 chip.  The player two to my left announced raise and threw out a $5,000 chip.  In the 2-3 seconds of silence that followed, we all realized he misintepreted my action.  The dealer then appropriately told him he needed to make a full raise.  The villian realized his mistake, grabbed his $5,000 chip back, said “I fold” and firmly placed his cards in the muck (on top of the other two mucked cards).  All hell broke loose.  The floor was called over.  The villian told the floor he thought I had made it $1,500 to go becuase he confused the orange and yellow ($1,000) chips.  The dealer was asked if he could distinguish the villian’s hand in the muck, and he said no.  I kept quiet given I unquestionably had live action with several players left to act.

    What do pokerati readers think happened?

  • The Big Randy had a situation like this at a circuit event, and the floor ultimately ruled that “the muck plays”. but the muck CAN’T play. hand is dead when mucking is part of the action. 

    That’s not to say in some circumstances floor can’t reconstruct the hand out of the muck … but if mucking was part of the action, then it’s dead.

  • lol, i didn’t see TBRs comment before posting my own … yes, what he said. 

  • Donkey Bomber

    Whatupsutherland 2
    comments collapsed Collapse, My hand was not mucked
    until the floor made the decision.  

    A couple
    more points…

    1. Because
    my opponent was a gentleman about it and I actually felt bad about it, I gave
    him a 1% free roll on my results for that event.  I owe him $40, could have been $7,800.

    2. I have
    lost more than 10 pots in my career for not turning over the winner.  One time against Jean Roberte playing
    $300-$600 Omaha 8, I tabled the best 2-card high hand, but did not turn over my
    other two cards.  The reason I didn’t
    turn over my other two cards is that I thought that my high hand was counterfeited
    on the river, and therefore no good, so I was showing Jean Roberte how I had
    him beat for high until the river.  As
    the pot was being pushed to him, I noticed that my high hand was good, and said
    “wait, I showed the best high hand”.  We got
    a ruling that all four cards must be shown in order to win any part of the pot.  I lose and I showed the winner.

    I have read
    my opponents hands for them when they were tabled and they didn’t know that
    they beat me, and I had to inform them that they had a flush or a straight. That
    hurts, but I do it.  I have paid Pat
    Poels ½ the pot when he showed his hand to his neighbor, then mucked, and his
    neighbor said that he had half the pot.

    Five players
    that actually saw what happened said the floor made the right ruling.

    The key to
    me is, I didn’t muck his hand, the dealer didn’t muck his hand, he mucked his
    own hand.  It was not bad luck or a
    dealer mistake that his hand ended up in the muck, he just misread his hand.  I believe that he found out that he had the
    best hand via someone else at the table, which is why he looked shocked after
    he mucked his hand.  If that’s the case,
    he shouldn’t win the pot.

    Why am I
    spending my time on this issue?  Well, I
    consider Gavin Smith to be a very honorable guy, and he says I did the wrong
    thing, and that bothers me.  Not that he
    says that, but that he thinks that.  I
    pride myself in doing the right thing in every situation, and maybe I didn’t
    this time.  Unfortunately for my opponent
    and for me, I had just received a couple of texts from people that put me on a
    little life tilt.  I will do better next
    time, and if you are playing with me, turn your hand up, and I will help you
    read it.

    • Jim

      I hate to rehash this after my long post but it’s sad that you first say it was your opinion that you think I misread your hand then here say i just misread my hand. I man damn, how many times are you going to flip your stories and also, just throw me under the fucking bus like I’m some kind of moron.

      You honestly believe you think I found out I had the winning hand via someone else at the table? Please share with me who it could have been. Your assuming so much and its insulting to me. You really thought I was that big of a moron?!? The only thing youve said correctly is that I looked shocked…and thats because I couldn’t believe you were being pushed the pot! Are you fucking serious talking out of both sides of your mouth. You alleged i flashed my neighbor one card so no one else could see. Please tell me how the hell then could I have found out “via someone at the table” that I mucked the best hand if you stated earlier I didn’t show anyone my hand but flashing my neighbor one card? Going along with your, I mucked story, how then would anyone know that I mucked the best hand? Oh that’s right, I heard a guy say sick call while looking at the dealers face all the while having my iPod blasting in both ears. Tom, I have changed my stance the more i read and am calling you out as a bold faced liar!!! Your story has more contradictions than a teen has zits! In a court of law, with all the holes in your version, you would have zero credibility.

      After reading the way you portray me it’s obvious you give me zero respect for my poker game. But hearing the way you spin these lies…it’s obvious you have no respect for me as a person nor the readers of this site. You spin the truth so much and are so contradictory how can anyone give you any credibility on this story after I’ve pointed out all you discrepancies!

      As for your 1% $40…after reading all your BS, keep it you must certainly need the money than I do.

    • Jim

      You stated yourself that you had just received a couple of texts from people that put you on a little life tilt. Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, that you, after getting a couple of life tilting texts during this crucial hand .. that maybe it’s you that was a little puzzled, befuddled, not on top of your game, and may have missed a few important facts. You admittedly say you were a little life tilted at the moment. I’m going to make assumptions as you’ve done throughout your entire post about me and say YES, it’s possible maybe you missed some important facts relevant to the hand due to your current state of mind.

      Your portrayal of me as a non attention paying moron has been disproven. I have run circles around you with my attention to every detail pertinent to this hand. You, on the other hand have contradicted yourself so many times. After verbalizing throughout my entire post my excellent attention to detail of everything and everyone on the table how could anyone possibly believe I just mucked my hand by either misreading my hand or yours whichever way you want to contradict your assumption! You then have the nerve to patronize me by saying, turn your hand up, I will help you read it! You give your reason for me being shocked is that I was told I mucked the winning hand and if that’s the case, I shouldn’t win the hand. So, if thats the real reason why you think I shouldn’t win the hand then I think we all know, you included, that I knew of my holding and I knew I was good. I’m going to make another assumption once again, just like you have. again, I think you are putting your spin on this situation to combat your integrity being called out for fighting for a pot you knew you had lost. Only after this calling out, you post a rebuttal comment now stating why I shouldnt win the pot .. mucking it then being told I mucked best. Pretty much saying, if he’s stupid enough to muck a winner he doesn’t deserve to win the pot.

      Now, I’ve made several non flattering assumptions about how you handled yourself and your integrity. I’m sure you’re not happy about. Welcome to my world pot or would you rather I call you kettle! Be careful, you know what they say about those who live in glass houses….

  • Scott Diamond

    Tom,
    You slid your cards forward after he said “I CALL”! and said, “I have nothing” The muck was on the dealers left, He was in seat 10 to the right. The dealer spread the remaining deck of cards out to the right hitting his hand. You know as a Poker player the person who says call turns their hand over last. The dealer at that time should have reached over and took your cards or told the BOTH of you to turn your hands over before pushing the pot. The first floor person said the cards were retrievable and due to another player seeing at least one card the Queen which was higher than your Jack told the floor guy you were beat.

    Also you told him you would give 1% of yourself if you cashed because you knew you were beat.

    I would not have posted an untrue story.

  • Donkey Bomber

    You are wrong.  Once the dealer got done dealing, he spread the stub out to the right.  Then, I bet.  Then the other player called.  All dealers when they deal the river card spread the stub, so how could the dealer have spread the stub into the player’s hand and then the player call my bet?  That makes no sense.  And if the dealer spread the stub into the player’s hand, how could he have shown his queen to his neighbor like you say hed di.  Even a player not at the table wouldn’t believe what you are saying because it couldn’t happen the way you are saying based upon dealer procedures.

  • Scott Diamond

    Tom,

    Your opponent and I are very good friends as I said in my blog. I was actually staying at his condo this weekend and I was taking pictures as I have a media pass for this years WSOP. I am a Deputy Sheriff in LA and Dan here knows me. Poker is a hobby and a great out for me after working the streets for over 25 years. Im not here to ruin someone or purposely accuse of them of wrong doing I wrote the facts as I do in my Police reports. I wrote a ‘Truth” and you have even admitted you were beat. But used a rule to your advantage. Both of you were stubborn for not turning your cards over. Im GUESSING you did not want the table to know you were chasing a gut shot straight as the flop was K-10-x when he had KQ. Also the MUCK was either in the middle of the table or slightly to the left so using the word “Muck” is not correct he just failed to flip as he was waiting for you. Plus the motion you made of pushing your card forward and saying I have nothing constitutes a Muck to me.

  • Donkey Bomber

    Also, why are you suggesting that the dealer should muck an exposed hand when the other hand hasn’t even been exposed.  You are right about one thing.  I did feel bad about the guy making a mistake, and it’s the first time I’ve ever seen anyone offer a freeroll to a guy for making a mistake.

    • Scott Diamond

      My understanding from your opponent and another who was there you flashed the Jack, you didnt turn over both cards. is this correct?

    • I find it really amusing that just two days ago everyone was up in arms over use of the phrase “bitches”.

      • Scott Diamond

        I took it down dan. Prob lost a friend over this ..long story but tomorrow is a new day. Bitches? lol

  • JimlShipley

    Wow, I can’t believe the hand has turned into all this chaos. It was never my intent to have this go “public”. Up until yesterday, I had only told the story to two people. First, let me introduce myself, my name is Jim Shipley and I was the opponent vs Tom in the hand in question. Second, let me say I did not solicit nor encourage the post on Deputyblog. I only found out about after Scott text me the next morning to read his blog in which he talks about the hand. It was the first time ever reading his blog. The accounts in his blog are not exactly as things happened nor explained. I talk fast, was tired when telling him the story (3am), and frustrated with poker and not wanting to talk. I am now only going to give my account of what actually happened from my point of view as both the Deputyblog and Toms account are both incorrect from my perspective. Also, Toms opinion, which he’s entitled to, of me misreading the board, is not even close to the truth. I knew exactly what cards he exposed, and also checked the river on purpose to induce a bluff. I gave him a little credit on maybe having Ace Ten rivering him two pair. But was confident I had the best hand. He had been very active calling raises in position and using his position to take down pots. The hand played out exactly as I wanted it to as I was able to induceva river bluff…where I erred was my carelessness. What upsets me most and my main reason for even taking part in this is the fact Tom voices his opinion that I misread my hand and a very disturbing opinion that the guy to my right may have tipped me off that I mucked the best hand! I won’t let myself be painted in this manner.

    I’m running late for an appointment but will be back shortly. Stay tuned as the gloves come off and my account of “the hand” is 100% fact from my point of view.

    First, I have an appointment to run to and should

    Yes, Scott was staying at my place as I have an extra bedroom and was willing to help him out. He text me shortl

    • Scott Diamond

      wow Jim…incorrect…at first you told me it was another Tom… I told you before I left I was going to Blog about it because we agreed. I wrote exactly what you told me and what i was told the next day.. If its incorrect as you say Ill remove it from my blog..Not here to throw anyone under the Bus just to report a fact of what happened in an expensive tournament to a FRIEND who I have supported since we met and an incident that I thought had some integrity issues in a game of integrity, honesty other than Bluffing.

  • Jimlshipley

    Scott, are you really going to make me defend myself in a public forum once again? Well here goes and you aren’t going to be happy but it’s the truth and it’s MY version firsthand.

    Yes, I told you it was another Tom in a text to you shortly after the hand happened. You text me asking what table I was at. I replied with, not in a good mood. Shortly after I sent another text giving a brief synopsis of the hand as I felt bad for being short with you earlier because you had told me you wanted to take some pictures. Fact, I did say Tom Franklin. That was the end of it. All during the day you continued to text me bead beat story after another. I was home on my couch watching a movie when you walked in. Yes, I consider you a friend, more on the poker side as that is how I met you and that is pretty much what we talk about when we do talk…which is very rare. Are we buddy buddy let’s grab a beer, go see a game kind of friends, no. You text me earlier in the week asking if I had room on my sofa for an old guy as rooms are expensive on fri and sat night. I sad yes you can stay. Now, back to the your last comment. You came in around 3am while I was watching a movie and instantly began with ALL your bad beat stories, even repeating ones you had text to me earlier that day. I was getting annoyed because I was trying to WATCH a movie. I eve told you, I don’t want to hear bad beat stories. You were silent about a minute then started up again with stories. I then out of frustration say, I’m over bad beat stories about stuff that happen every day to very poker player. If the best players always won then there would be 20 people in Vegas playing poker for a living. Do you want to hear how my day went a true bad beat story..one out of my control over a bad ruling and I proceeded to tell you about the hand in question. It was the first time I talked about the hand since I left the Rio, I was done with it and moving on. Yes Scott you said you were going to write about it in your blog. We did NOT agree on this. I really didn’t give much thought to you writing about it. I surely didn’t think you were going to write an entire blog about it, use our names and bios and talk as if it were me in 3rd person. If I had thought it was an important of an issue as you did I would have taken the matter in my own hands. I don’t need you nor anyone else to fight my battles. If so, I am not scared to ask for help. So now you’ve said that WE agreed and you wrote exactly what I told you…both are untrue. Your blog is not exactly as I had told you. And what is this of what I told you the next day? You text me that you posted the blog and gave me the link. I read it and immediately text you back saying it was Schneider not Franklin. Sorry I was very upset when I text you it was Franklin that day. You got upset and said you were changing it. I was walking out the door and thought it was over only to find out later that night it had created a stir in the poker industry.

    So Scott, now I’m going to do a separate post about “the hand” from MY point of view. I feel as though I have to clean up this shit that has been started which I didn’t wanted any part of. I just wanted to reply to your above comment “wow Jim”. I prefer not to vent/communicate via public forums but since you chose this path I will follow your lead. I will say this, I know you meant no harm to either of us with your blog. If I said some things you posted were incorrect I’m not calling you a liar I’m merely saying maybe you misunderstood, etc. As I said earlier, I talk very fast as any who know me wil attest, I was tired, and I was very aggravated by having to be held prisoner to bad beat stories in my own home!

    • Scott Diamond

      Jim,
      your story is what I wrote! As to all the other things Im not going to reply to them. I see now that the friendship I thought we had wasnt.

  • Jimlshipley

    Mucked up .. Opponents version!

    First, let me start by saying, it was never my intention to take this public. I was over it right after it happened. Well, not right away, I did let it linger with me for about an hour. Angel Guillen in Seat 7 even said “you have to put it behind you and play poker”, as he noticed I was still visibly upset about the ruling. He was right and I moved on. After explaining the story to a friend, Deputyblog, he took it upon himself to dedicate an entire blog on the hand using our personal bios and such. Personally, I prefer to lay low and under the radar. So, it came as a shock to me late last night when I heard the blog had created such a stir. Then this morning reading Toms reaction and his account of what had happened. I wasn’t too happy with his portrayal of me and his version of the way the hand played out. So, here I am to give my version and to refute some of Toms claims.

    I was in Seat 10 and Tom the 5 Seat. I raise KQ in middle pos which Tom calls from the button. Flop K10x rainbow, I bet he calls, turn brick I bet he calls. At this point, I am positive I have the best hand and put Tom on a 10 at best, possibly QJ for a draw but thought he would have raised my flop bet in position with a draw, and maybe a king too but i saw how he played Top pair king in an earlier hand and thought he would have raised my flop bet if he had a King. River is an ace. I still think I’m good but QJ just got there and so did A10 which could be likely. After mulling over a bit, I decide check calling was the best play as I did not want to get raised and have to fold the best hand and also, there was a good chance he would bluff with worse.

    Let me state that I’ve gone into detail with accounts leading up to the “muck” because I feel like Toms account of my actions are those of someone blasting his iPod in both ears, not really paying attention, doesn’t really know the game, befuddled, can’t think beyond the cards I’m holding if that. So, now you can see how much detail I went into with my thought process during the hand (no chance I misread the board as he suggests).

    Here is where the rubber meets the road. I check the river with every intention of calling a bet. Yes, I have my iPod on and plugs in both ears yet not blaring, I always hold/protect my cards with my left hand and riffle and cut chips with my right. I am looking directly at Tom when I announce check. He throws in 2 500 chips and I pretty much instantly call. By now the dealer has spread the stub across the front of her…it reaches pretty close to where my left hand is covering my cards. I call, and Tom alleges (which I am not disputing) that he said “nothing” it’s just that I did nit hear him. Here is where I have a problem of his version. He states he bet, I called, and he announces “nothing”, then states “my opponent didn’t turn over his hand, so I table my jack-high”. Two things wrong with this. First, stating I have nothing constitutes nothing about your hand…it means literally nothing in poker. Why does he even mention that I did not turn over my hand after he announced “nothing”? I CALLED his bet and it is on him to show or muck, action was on him NOT me! He then goes on to say I looked befuddled…really, no Tom, I am just waiting on you to turn over your hand! My opinion, he knew when called I had the best hand and he thought I would turn mine over first, as a lot of novices do (sorry, I’m not that guy) and he would be able to muck his hand and not give any information about his hand for future plays sake. As I sat there with my perceived, befuddled look, I am still waiting for him to turn over his hand…a few seconds passed at which time Tom slid his cards forward just a bit, I would say 3-4 inches. At this time, I thought he had mucked. I took my left hand off my hand at which time Tom turned over J9. I went to turn my hand over and grab one card vs both and turn up the Queen. I did not turn it up so only my next-door player can see it as he implies. Any of you reading, grab two cards as you would in poker, now go to expose one card with one hand .. now tell me which way the card is showing. That’s right, its perpendicular to the table with the queen facing to the right not in view of the players in seat 1-6/7. I was never just trying to flash my neighbor as Tom implies. I meant to turn both over, now realizing I had only pealed one and it being the queen, I pushed it slightly to the left in order to turn the other card over. During this moment of my carelessness, the dealer pushed the pot to Tom at which time I say what are you doing, I won the hand.

    Once again, I have to defend my actions and Toms account of what happened. Tom 100% slid his cards fwd a bit, he also took longer than normal to turn his hand over, and him implying maybe It’s possible my neighbor kicked me under the table hen I mucked the best hand…seat 9 had an iPad and was playing word with friends and perusing poker news updates the entire time. He looked at his cards right when he got them and insta folded when it was his turn to act. I knew every time when he was going to fold or play a hand. He definitely did not kick me under the table. As for possibly seeing the look on the dealers face, um I’m not looking at the dealers face ever, I’m looking at yours Tom, waiting for you to turn over your hand in a timely manner. In my opinion, it was the dealers mistake for not telling you right away to reveal your hand and maybe not reaching for your cards when you pushed them fwd a bit. Now to Toms last possibility. Maybe the guy muttering “sick call” alerting this perceived moron, that something was up? Um, didn’t Tom allege earlier that I had my iPod blasting in both ears? Yet now, it may be possible I heard the guy in the 3 seat utter “sick call”. So what I want to know, which is it? Am I the careless, not paying attention, can’t read a board, music blasting player he portrays early in his post, or am I the one so alert I notice the dealers face, someone across the table uttering words, being kicked by my neighbor and putting two and two together, come on seriously?!?

    So now we have a problem, the dealer has pushed the pot to Tom, I’m standing up saying what is happening. Floor is called, he asks what happened. The dealer is Asian (not knocking Asians, I’m half Korean) and can’t/doesn’t really explain thend too well. Tom talks, I talk, seat 1 and seat 3 say they saw me muck, seat 9 my neighbor, says he saw a queen. The floor guy is obv a rookie as he couldn’t make a ruling and says he will be right back. That in itself is a problem for discussion in another forum. How a floor person can not make a ruling on the spot? That’s what you’re there to do, make a ruling, if someone insists on going over your head, then go get help, but geez earn your money. So, said floor comes back and says, “I talked with my supervisor because I didn’t want to make a mistake on such an important hand” he says because my hand was identifiable in the muck it can be retrieved, therefore, awarding me the pot. Keep in mind, Tom was pushed the pot, I then contested, the chips were in front of him and when I was then awarded the pot by the floor, the chips stayed in front of him. At this point, Tom cannot believe that you can take cards back out of the muck and wants to hear it from said Supervisor.

    Let me digress a bit. When the floor first came to the table and Tom gave his version of what I did, he mimicked how I mucked my hand, actually taking two cards and sticking them under the stub. At this point I got irate saying “really Tom, that’s how I mucked, really, seriously I mucked my hand under the stub.” He totally misrepresented how I mucked my hand, which, in my defense, I never mucked. But to totally fabricate how I did it. Why not just say I tossed em over the dealer to the actual muck on her left. Little subtle facts like these make a huge difference when trying to make a floor decision or the readers trying to formulate their opinions. Yes, in his post, Tom comes correct and says I laid my hand face down on top of the stub. He just didn’t say the same to the floor supervisor which probably was a major factor in him reversing his decision. Now it appears that I cut them into the muck therefore making it hard for my hand to be identifiable. In reality, as I said earlier, my hand hit the far tip of the stub…it was literally inches from where I had had my hand the whole time. Very little margin for error and careless on my part.

    So now you have it. Now I would like to take the time to point out and defend some things I feel weren’t represented the way I saw them. First, Tom mentions the 5 players on his side of the table saw me muck. I am assuming he is talking about the players to his right which would be seats 1-4 as he was in seat 5. Only seat 1 and seat 3 said anything…yes, they both said I mucked and they both said they knew what my intention was but it’s just unfortunate. I’m wondering how seat 1 who was honestly about 5’2 Saw exactly all my actions. I couldn’t see around the dealer at him so how can he see me so well, I’m 5’11 and have a hard time seeing actions in seat 1. To further validate my point, seat 1 must have mucked out of turn at least 5 times, mucking his hand right before I acted. Want to fathom a guess as to why…yes, he can’t freaking see my actions! Now on to seat 3. I will get to seat 2 in a minute as there is a funny yet revealing story behind it. Seat 3 was the most vocal about the hand. Him and Tom had been talking the entire time previous to the hand in question. Seat 4 was older and I don’t recall saying anything about the hand. Seat 9 said he says a queen, no one else said anything. That leaves 2 players not 5 on his side he said they saw me muck. Ok now seat 2. Here I go and I hate to call out names but seat 2 was AJ from the Sopranos. I was at Planet Hollywood last night. Randomly, he walks up to me, I had no clue at the table who he was until seat 8 said he looked familiar, who is he? So, AJ comes up to me and says, dude, you got fucked in that hand…it took a second to process who and what he was talking about. Then I reply yea can you believe that? He goes on to say, I’m paraphrasing by the way, you got fucked and I wanted to say something but I just stayed quiet, I couldn’t believe it. My point for bringing this up is Tom refers to the 5 players on his side, first there were only 4 and I have first hand testimonial that one, AJ, felt I was getting screwed and says he didnt say a word. Remember, I didn’t solicit him, he, a movie star walked up to me to share this. Does that mean I should been awarded the pot, no, of course not. I’m just trying to paint the facts exactly as they happened and not one persons biased opinion. I then mentioned, I wish you would have said something but I also understand why you didn’t. I’m the same way, I stay out of other players pots when I’m not involved. AJ then says I know…the guy on my left (seat 3) was so far up Toms ass. Now that I can quote verbatim. This is not a slam against Tom in any fashion just me repeating another players point of view on what happened. Seat 3 clearly favored Tom…was it because of what he really did see or was it idolism?

    As for Toms comment, every pro he has asked agreed with the ruling. I can tell you I, as well, have heard from a few Pros, first, saying hands can be retrieved from the muck but more importantly, they would never have called the floor in the first place in this situation. They would not want to win a hand this way. An integrity issue and that any PRO should adhere to a higher standard while playing especially one who was awarded WSOP Player of the Year. I will say that I have also heard that Tom is one of the nicest guys in poker and he also displayed this by offering me 1% of his winnings. I never told anyone that I felt his giving me 1% was an admission of his guilt as suggested in an earlier post. That was purely another persons opinion. Which is exactly why I felt the need to post my perspective as I felt opinions on me, the opponent, were misrepresented.

    I’m on my iPad and can’t scroll up. I left out another detail which to me is relevant and I want point it up. I pay a lot of detail to everything that goes on at the table, yes I know what you all are thinking…I should pay more attention to how I handle my own hand. I watched Tom muck and turn over hands when called. Similar situation arose shortly after our hand. QQxxx board, on river opponent checks and Tom in position bets, he gets called and immediately turned his 99 over. Exactly where his cards where he flipped them over and was called by seat 2 holding JJ. I bring this up because of how he he handled my call. Yes he had nothing and said so and his 99 could be best hand there but bottom line is he was called and flipped his cards over rt then and there. Versus me, he announces nothing, which means nothing, pauses a couple of seconds, slides his cards up a few inches, then after I think he’s just mucking and take my hand off my cards he flips his hand over.

    I take offense to a comment Tom makes later saying ” if you are playing with me, turn your hand up, and I will help you read it”. It sounds like a cheap shot as to my skill as a poker player…c’mon little boy turn your hand over and I’ll help you read it. Wtf! I want to say the same, when in a hand and if called, turn your hand over immediately, don’t wait and see if I’m going to turn mine over first saving you the expense of having to either muck or show bluff just instamuck if you don’t want to show your bluff. This is where the whole problem started. Had he tabled his hand right away I would have tabled mine immediately as well. Now we’re playing cat and mouse and i end up the mouse. He was definitely waiting for me to table mine just because he said “nothing”. I’m not sure if that’s taking a shot but it definitely isnt standard procedure for a PRO, maybe at a 1/2 table!

    In closing, who was right, who knows? All I know is I feel slighted and since we’re stating opinions as we’re entitled to. Yes, I feel he took a shot or whatever you want to call it. Am I saying he’s a bad guy, no. Just someone using his knowledge of the game and his obvious lack of respect for my game to his advantage. I played baseball in college, did I grab a handful of dirt when I was going to steal and throw it towards whoever was covering the bag? Yes. Did I try and break up double plays by spiking the shortstop, of course.
    Was it dirty play, part of the game, just trying to win? You be the judge. Was Tom playing within the rules, yes…could he have handled it differently, absolutely! Was it sketchy play? I don’t know, it was definitely a douche move to not immediately table your hand but is there a standard to uphold or is it do anything to win a pot?

    I didn’t want to go public with this but felt the need to defend Toms opinions of me as his account of what happened was SO skewed in his favor. He portrays me as a bumbling fool. He is certainly welcome to his opinion, but I definitely did not misread his hand, no one kicked me under the table, I didn’t hear someone say sick call, didn’t see the dealers face, I 100% knew I had the winning hand when I saw his and thought the pot was mine the entire time. I simply thought he mucked then turned his hand over and I was careless in tabling my hand. I may not have gotten the chips but I definitely won the hand and outplayed him that time.

    What do pokerati readers think happened now?!?

  • Tyhi

    who gives 1% to someone who lost a pot. you obv fucked him over and try to but out. haha

  • The Big Randy

    Tom!  You should be ashamed of yourself.

  • The Team Pokerati Standards Committee has been called to session to assess whether Tom needs to face censure or sanction as a Team Pokerati member. We will let you all know their findings. 

  • TailoredReaction

    I think the inference was the mucker misread the other guy’s hand, not his own. It’s a terrible beat, but once mucked the cards should be dead. As far as I am concerned the confusion was caused by the floor asking if the cards were still identifiable. That question infered if they were retrievable the ruling could be reversed. A muck is a muck is a muck. No way out of that.

  • Pull it out of the muck to win the pot? Yeah…AT A KITCHEN TABLE FOR A WINNING HAND AT PENNY POKER! But not at the professional level at the WSOP.

  • Ralph

    sounds to me like you’re right. If he mucks then he mucks. Good lesson for him before mucking.